How do you figure unBiblical?
Matthew 19:10-12
"10 His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.11 Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it. "
Ist Corinthians 7:6-9
"6 But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. 7 For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that. 8 But I say to the unmarried, and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. 9 But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt."
Revelation 14:1-5
1: Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
3: and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.
4: It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste; it is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes; these have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb,
5: and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are spotless.
...And just what's unhistorical about obeying the very words of Christ and the apostle Paul, from the very Bible that YOU say is the sole source of all we are supposed to believe. You don't know what you're talking about...
Now to your so called evidence:
I will display each of these passages and deal with them in turn...
1st Corinthians 9:5 "5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?"
Paul certainly had the right...but he, in obedience to the very words of Christ chose not to. We know that he was unmarried and this just simply points up the fact that at least one apostle (that we know of for sure) chose and lived a celibate life. This really cuts both ways, but does not help your case anymore than it helps mine. I feel that it shows a case FOR celibacy as much as it shows that some of the apostles and early Bishops were married... this certainly DOES support my case that there are valid scriptural reasons for celibate clergy regardless of the change that the deformers brought about in the 1500's because some of them couldn't hack it... This only means that one should be very sure of his calling before making such a vow.
1st Timothy 3:2-12(dropped verse 1 as self evident)
"2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
6 Not a neophyte: lest being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre: 9 Holding the mystery of faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved: and so let them minister, having no crime.
11 The women in like manner chaste, (Nuns?) not slanderers, but sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses."
So what we see here is that St. Paul says that those who seek the office of bishop must be squared away in many things. This shows the sanctity of marriage and the importance of a good report with the non-believers...this still does NOT negate Christ's own call to celibacy in the passages I gave you earlier...Nor St.Paul's own statement to that effect that I also cited.
If Jesus and Paul BOTH hadn't made these statements, then we'd have nothing to discuss...but your flat refusal to even acknowledge that my cited passages exist and that they are indeed scriptural mandates and guidelines (at least) is just "cherry picking". I have no questions about marriage and that some of the apostles were married...we have some married priests today and that is fine...
Titus 1:6 "6 If any be without crime, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of riot, or unruly"
Same as above...
1st Timothy 4:1-3 "1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, 3 Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
I would just answer with this note that is in my Bible that covers what I was gonna say better than I could have.
3 "Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats"... He speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who absolutely condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. Whereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance."
So, the admonition about heretics that forbid to marry is directed at the heretics of that day they really have nothing to do with those who willingly take a vow of celibacy for the sake of their service of God.
My only point gentlemen, is that it is not (as alleged) "unBiblical" as I hope is apparent from my posts.
I'm adding this next part from a dear Franciscan Brother who outlined his daily schedule in response to a comment from a non-Catholic that our celibate lifestyles were unbiblical
I'm reading this with a smile on my face. We have two sides here. One side wants to prove at all cost that celibacy is a heresy. The other side wants to prove that it's not a heresy, but that it's good for the person.
Has anyone thought to ask any of us thousands of men and women who are vowed to live celibate lives, who are very happy as celibate men and women, who have never violated anyone and who have no desire to be married -- has anyone asked us about our faith journey and how celibacy has helped us along that journey?
It's so interesting to watch those who have no stake in the matter try to decide for us what is right and wrong with the way that we live, but without ever asking us and without knowing us as persons. Most of us are very happy being celibate.
Is it non-biblical? I'll let you be the judge of that. I'll give you my daily schedule and you tell me if it's non-biblical.
On top of that schedule of prayer, fraternal life and service, there are the three vows: obedience, poverty and consecrated celibacy.
4:45 Divine Office - Matins
5: 15 Lectio Divina
5:45 Divine Office - Lauds
6:15 Holy Mass
7:00 Breakfast
7:30 We speak for the first time this day and we clean up breakfast dishes, etc
8:00 Divine Office - Mid-Morning Prayer
8:30 Leave for ministry
12:00 break for bread and tea
12:15 Continue ministry
2:30 Divine Office - Mid - Afternoon Prayer
3:00 Quiet Time (study, pray, read, write letters, check email or nap)
4:00 Divine Office - Evening Prayer
4:30 Rosary
5:00 Silent Prayer in chapel
5:30 Supper
6:15 Clean up
6:45 Ministry
8:45 Community Recreation
9:45 Divine Office - Night Prayer - begin grand silence and bed if you want to
12:00 am. Divine Office - Midnight Office
12:30 back to bed
1. I, Brother N, Vow to obey the Holy Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Rule until death.
2. I vow to live according to the poverty of the Most High Lord Jesus Christ Crucified, without any property of my own, without wishing or desiring anything for myself except the salvation of my soul, and without seeking any place other than the last place for myself, according to the Holy Gospel.
3. I vow to voluntarily surrender the only possession that I truly have, the right to marriage and fatherhood, realizing that it is a pearl of great value and I return it to almighty God in reparation for my sins, in praise of his glory and love, and for the greater good of my brothers. Instead, I hereby bind myself to these my brothers as Christ prayed that all might be one, as he and the Father are one, and I solemnly vow, at the risk of losing my immortal soul that I will love my brothers as Christ loved his Apostles and will, to the best of my abilities, strive to fulfill Christ's greatest wish that we might all be one as he and the Father are one, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
And in conclusion, I vow to obey our Holy Father Francis and his canonically elected successors so that totally stripped of all things, including my will, I may conform to Christ who was obedient even unto death. To this, I consecrate all the days of my life and I ask you my brothers to pray with me, that God may have mercy on my soul.
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PS. That's the formula for vows for the Franciscan Brothers.. The wording varies from one community to another, but they're the same vows and the effect is the virtually the same.
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Which part is not biblical, the daily life or the vows?
What married man can live this life?
I wish someone would ask me if this celibacy is Anti Biblical?
Amen Brother! Amen!
Blackie
